My New Boxing "What If" Series

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My New Boxing "What If" Series

Duggerman
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This post was updated on .
I've been on a roll lately. Here are the topics. They're each very informative, and I come at everything from all sides. Let me know what you think, and if you agree or disagree with the outcomes and why.

What If? Joe Louis v. Mike Tyson

What If? Lennox Lewis v. Joe Frazier

What If? Jack Dempsey v.  Rocky Marciano

What If? Sonny Liston v.  Evander Holyfield

What If? David Tua versus Primo Carnera

What If? Floyd Patterson  v.  Ken Norton
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Zorro
AJ these are GREAT! Phenomenal. I sat and read through all three and you really do base these things on fact and allow the reader to come to their own conclusion regarding the conclusion of the fight.

It makes total sense why you have the predictions that you do, so it's evident you have no bias and base things off their actual ring performances.

But I see Louis beating Tyson because of Tyson's flaws (the flaws you pointed out).

Frazier murders Lennox Lewis (as you said, Lewis could barely handle Mercer, and I think Frazier would survive if Lewis tried to stop him early. The only person to stop Joe was Foreman.) I just see Frazier coming out on top with that left hook.

I like Rocky but Jack Dempsey murders him. Head to head Dempsey was better than Rocky but Rocky had more heart and determination.

But those articles are amazing dude.  Amazing.

You give Monte Cox and Frank Lotierzo a serious run for their money. Have they seen these? They should!
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Evolution
In reply to this post by Duggerman
VERY well written, AJ. I can't argue with you, but I still feel that Dempsey beats Marciano and Louis beats Tyson. Lennox could very well put away Joe Frazier early though. I felt Lennox's power first hand.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

49-0
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"If Mike kept his head on straight and fought as consistently as Louis did, do you think it's possible that he would have 25 title defenses in that era? That's something to think about."

You posed an interesting question there. Tyson's style wasn't meant for longevity. You're absolutely right though that there's no one Louis beat that Tyson wouldn't be able to. You also were right that Tyson beat big men most of the time but couldn't kayo them, but I think he'd be able to knock out Carnera and the Baer brothers.

25 title defenses? 11 year reign as champion? I think Mike would lose focus and mess things up for himself somewhere. If he were cloned as a robot purely to fight and had no emotion, then you're right that he could match or maybe beat those records set by Joe Louis. But realisticly it's inevitable that he gets lazy and someone upsets him. The question would be....who?

I could see Joe (Frazier) beating Lewis. But Lewis was more hurt by rights than lefts, so I don't know how Joe's left hook plays a factor.

Marciano would withstand Dempsey's first round blitz and eventually stop him. Dempsey himself spoke highly of Rocky and hinted that he would lose to him. Rocky was just better, more conditioned and more heart.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Duggerman
Administrator
If you disagree with the outcomes, explain how. We need to discuss this. The way I researched everything makes it hard to disagree. Don't disagree out of bias. State your case.

@49-0. I'm not sure how Tyson would do in Louis' era. He has the ability to crush everyone Louis fought. Not just on natural ability, but also remember that he grew up watching fight films of these guys and said, "I know every move they make before they make it." Tyson would be more than ready for them.

BUT given the fact that Tyson lost focus during his own era makes me think that he'd slip on a banana peel at some point. But if he kept a cool head, then sure he could break Louis' records.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Zorro
^^I stated my case but to go into a wee bit more detail, I don't know if Lewis could stop Joe early. Joe moved his head a lot and kept coming. He might lose the early rounds but by round 4 it's all downhill for Lewis as Joe would be increasing his pressure and battering the big englishman with that left hook.

Tyson has predictable flaws in his style. You don't make mistakes against Joe Louis. I think Joe had the chin to survive Mike's punches. A lot of men did, and Joe fought some harder hitters than Tyson.

Dempsey would eat Rocky alive. He could do  a lot of damage. This wouldn't be like Lewis and Frazier where Frazier could dodge Lewis as he comes in. Jack and Rocky would be right in range of each other and Jack had the faster attack and better accuracy as you pointed out yourself in the article.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

The Golden Jet
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I've been on a roll lately. Here are the topics. They're each very informative, and I come at everything from all sides. Let me know what you think, and if you agree or disagree with the outcomes and why.

What If? Joe Louis v. Mike Tyson

What If? Lennox Lewis v. Joe Frazier

What If? Jack Dempsey v.  Rocky Marciano
Man AJ you got those writing skills. Major props to you sir!

I never really thought about Tyson beating Louis. Given Tyson's mental unstability and Louis being such a calm cool assasin, I kinda just assumed Louis would beat him. But i never really thought about this matchup in real depth either. I used to lean toward Louis but I see why you picked Tyson. But if they fought in a trilogy of fights I think Louis would win once maybe. He was still Joe Louis after all. And as you cleverly noted, Tyson had more than one flaw that Joe could exploit. And he was more patient while Tyson was a front runner who rarely had knockouts past the 4th round even in his prime.

OK. Lewis and Frazier. This is a fight I never thought of much either. Did Frazier ever fight anyone as big as Lewis? Foreman and Ali were big but isn't Lewis bigger? And I think Lewis had a better jab than both. Ali's was faster but Lewis' was longer. And harder.  I agree with your conclusion though. Lewis' claim of being a "five dimensional fighter" would reign supreme here.

Rocky and Dempsey? I've thought of this one before but I think Dempsey hurts Rocky early and wins by TKO. Rocky cut so easy and Dempsey was such an animal early. I don't see Rocky surviving the Dempsey roll. He might lose on his feet but it'd be a TKO stoppage.

GREAT blogs! Can I make a recommendation?

How about Sonny Liston? How does he do against Holyfield? Holmes? Or even Tokyo Douglas? Yeah I know Buster was a bum but he used Muhammad Ali tactics to beat Tyson so maybe he could beat Liston in a similar fashion to what Ali did?

I wanna see something on David Tua too. Match him with someone like Primo Carnera, or Mercer, or Tyson.

Keep. Them. Coming!
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Urban Legend
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I've been on a roll lately. Here are the topics. They're each very informative, and I come at everything from all sides. Let me know what you think, and if you agree or disagree with the outcomes and why.

What If? Joe Louis v. Mike Tyson

What If? Lennox Lewis v. Joe Frazier

What If? Jack Dempsey v.  Rocky Marciano
I read all of these and you gave me a lot to chew on. Well researched and documented. You're great at what you do.  

I still predict Joe Louis to slay Mike Tyson.  Tyson had too many flaws and wasn't busy enough. You mentioned all of this - Tyson bobbed and weaved in a predictable pattern, he leaned to the left before throwing the left hook and he stopped punching once he got inside. These are open, easy exploits for Joe Louis. I don't think tyson would ever be in the fight honestly. Joe would shut him down with those mistakes.

Frazier versus Lewis. You proved a great point when you mentioned how Joe was a pro at countering uppercuts with his deadly left hook. That is how he dropped Muhammad. You're absolutely right about that. Joe was great at slipping a jab, getting inside and working the body. Ali had a better jab than Lewis and Joe manuevered past it relatively easy and always got to Ali's body. Joe would make Lewis look foolish missing all those jabs and get knocked off his feet by a Frazier left hook when he tries the uppercut.

Dempsey and Marciano. You might as well flip a coin. Anything can happen when two swarmers come at each other. But Dempsey was the better fighter, though Rocky had more heart and determination. in this fight the better fighter would win. Dempsey by kockout or tKO.

Good blog series.

I have suggestions too. Foreman v. Liston, Ali v. Tyson, Tyson v. Liston. Johnson v. Dempsey.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Duggerman
Administrator
Great suggestions, guys. I'm trying to exclude Tyson, Lewis, Frazier, Louis, Marciano and Dempsey because they've been featured already. I'm trying to do fantasy matches that are rarely thought of and discussed.
I was leaning towards Holyfield or Holmes versus Liston. Either way Sonny will be a participant in my next one.  Who would you like me to feature alongside him? Marvis Frazier? LOL.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

redfeng007
In reply to this post by Duggerman
What if Lennox Lewis vs Bowe?

It will also be Manny vs Eddie Futch in the corner like a chess game.

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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Duggerman
Administrator
redfeng007 wrote
What if Lennox Lewis vs Bowe?

It will also be Manny vs Eddie Futch in the corner like a chess game.
Thanks for the suggestion. I may do it later but I've already used Lewis in a fantasy fight. I won't be re-using any of the fighters for a while.  I'm leaning toward using Liston, but not sure who to pit him against.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Evan Fields
Duggerman wrote
Thanks for the suggestion. I may do it later but I've already used Lewis in a fantasy fight. I won't be re-using any of the fighters for a while.  I'm leaning toward using Liston, but not sure who to pit him against.
Liston versus Foreman. I see Foreman hasn't been used yet either. Or maybe Liston or Foreman versus a Klitschko brother or Riddick Bowe or someone. You have a lot of options.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Alexander
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I've been on a roll lately. Here are the topics. They're each very informative, and I come at everything from all sides. Let me know what you think, and if you agree or disagree with the outcomes and why.

What If? Joe Louis v. Mike Tyson

What If? Lennox Lewis v. Joe Frazier

What If? Jack Dempsey v.  Rocky Marciano
I normally don't like to read long things but man your details and insight are amazing.
Mike knocks out Louis. Louis was too small and would be massacred.
Lennox beats Frazier
I feel that Dempsey beats Rocky though.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Sivul
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I've been on a roll lately. Here are the topics. They're each very informative, and I come at everything from all sides. Let me know what you think, and if you agree or disagree with the outcomes and why.

What If? Joe Louis v. Mike Tyson

What If? Lennox Lewis v. Joe Frazier

What If? Jack Dempsey v.  Rocky Marciano
I haven't been here in a long time. I read through the Tyson and Louis one earlier today and just finished the other two.

Good points all around. Joe's habit of leaving that right hand low would get him squashed by Tyson. I like how you posted that gif of Tami Mauriello to show your point. Like Tyson said, "speed kills." There's a possibility that Louis might be able to counter a Tyson attack but chances are that Tyson would be too fast. You also pointed out that the peekaboo has flaws. Joe could definitely figure out how to exploit them but my bet would be that Tyson ends the fight before Louis could.

You know your sh.it man. I never noticed how Lewis ducked into punches. Frazier wouldn't even have to lunge. Lewis would duck into the left hook. Now you're absolutely right that Lewis could hurt Frazier early. But Frazier had so much heart. I don't think he'd stay down. He'd keep coming and like you also mentioned, Lewis left himself wide open for left hooks each time he threw the uppercut. I like how you tied that into how Frazier decked Ali. The uppercut is the wrong punch to throw against Frazier. I totally agree with the article, but disagree with the conclusion as I feel Frazier would survive Lewis. I don't think Lewis has a chance against Frazier because he wouldn't win in a shoot-out, and he couldn't try to outbox him either.

The Dempsey and Marciano article was great too, as I'd never seen a fantasy fight between them discussed in so much depth before. I agree with you that Rocky wins it because he had more heart and Dempsey in no way had the stamina or determination to stick it out with Rocky.

If you're still taking suggestions I'd say do one on Patterson versus Baer or Butterbean versus....well...I dunno.

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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

MAGUIRE
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Great points all around. You have a good point about Mercer pushing Lewis almost to the brink. Joe Frazier would be a real nightmare for Lennox because Mercer's pressure that night was nothing compared to the endless heat Joe Frazier would bring.

Having said that, I don't think it's a matter of Lewis knocking Joe out early. That may or may not happen. People throw Joe into the "bad chin" category. That's ridiculous to me because he was only KO'd by Foreman. I think we should excuse that because well, Foreman is Foreman.

My thing is that Joe was too small for Lewis. Had he ever fought anyone that big before?  I don't recall Joe fighting anyone above 6'3. Foreman and Ali were the tallest men he fought that I know of.

I don't see Joe making it against today's athletes or the Klitschkos either. Joe brought buckets of heart to the game but he's too small against the giants in my opinion and he puts himself right in range to get blasted out.

I liked the Tyson and Louis blog also. I think Louis would be in trouble early but he fought well when hurt and return the favor to Tyson. Louis may have been smaller than Tyson but he had hands just as fast and similar power.

Both men would hit the deck but I'm convinced that Louis would get up, but Tyson would not.

Marciano and Dempsey? Flip a coin. If they fought a trilogy, each guy would win one. I feel the same way about Marciano against Frazier, or Frazier against Dempsey. Flip a coin. They're all the same fighter really.

By the way, I like this series. Keep it going.  
 photo lennox-hair_3476731_GIFSoupcom_zps919d29c7.gif
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

redfeng007
Joe Louis will fight back harder if Tyson hurts him.

I bet if Tyson knocked Joe Louis to the ground.

It will be a wake up call for Joe Louis to return back the punishment.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Duggerman
Administrator
redfeng007 wrote
Joe Louis will fight back harder if Tyson hurts him.

I bet if Tyson knocked Joe Louis to the ground.

It will be a wake up call for Joe Louis to return back the punishment.
That is, if Louis would even make it up on sturdy legs. Remember that he never fought anyone like Tyson before. Tyson had speed, and Louis wouldn't know what hit him. It's the punches you don't see that render you unconscious or hurt the most. I don't see Louis surviving Tyson....

New blog up! Check it out

What If? Sonny Liston v.  Evander Holyfield

Keep the suggestions coming, fellas. I'm leaning toward Floyd Patterson versus Max Baer, or David Tua versus Primo Carnera for my next one, but neither is official.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Duggerman
Administrator
Another new one! David Tua versus Primo Carnera.

http://www.ajdugger.net/blog/what-if-david-tua-versus-primo-carnera
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Hit Em' Hard
I need to catch up on these. I read the Lewis/Frazier one and you're right on with the prediction. I like the gifs you use to back up your points. It shows you're not writing this based on bias. Your writing gathers all the facts about both contenders and then lets the reader make up his own mind. That's good reporting.
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Re: My New Boxing "What If" Series

Zombies Ate Me
In reply to this post by Duggerman
Duggerman wrote
I've been on a roll lately. Here are the topics. They're each very informative, and I come at everything from all sides. Let me know what you think, and if you agree or disagree with the outcomes and why.

What If? Joe Louis v. Mike Tyson

What If? Lennox Lewis v. Joe Frazier

What If? Jack Dempsey v.  Rocky Marciano

What If? Sonny Liston v.  Evander Holyfield

What If? David Tua versus Primo Carnera
They've been making their rounds on Facebook. I've seen these being shared like wildfire. It's only a matter of time before ESPN or HBO calls you to be on one of their documentaries.
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